Spectator wrote „If Germany didn’t have to keep some 50 divisions in France and Italy to fight the Allies, they would have made mincemeat of the Red Army.”

Do you honestly expect readers on this forum to sympathize with Nazi Germany’s goals, strategy & tactics?  In other words, do you for some weird reason expect readers to feel *regret* that Allied forces while in France’s and Italy’s territory engaged Nazi Germany?

Please elaborate.

Spectator ~ if George Patton, bless his soul, would have had a say, he would have kept rolling and there would have been no cold war, no captive nations to worry about, no victory monument in Riga and no May 9 celebration in Moscow. Too bad politics interfered. {:~)

Elizabet ~ what I read into spectator’s off the cuff comment was that Soviet Union’s red army did not deserve credit for a great victory or any victory. From my personal and military experience I would say that the Allies without Russia would have defeated Nazi Germany hands down. Think of the drain on the Western Allies by the lend-lease to the Soviets, weapons and monies they could have used on the western front. Secondly, had this been strictly an eastern front war, Soviet Union against Nazi Germany, Germany would have won. Germany had better military leadership and armament, and there would not have been a lend-lease to contend against.

Russians did not even try to right a wrong war, while the Germans did, as noted by Lilita Klinkerte-Stāraste, “Pret Hitleru zināmi desmitiem atentātu, sākot no zemākajiem līdz pašiem augstākajiem armijas slāņiem, bet pret Staļinu – neviens!”

If only old Hell on Wheels been allowed to roll on. If only politics had not interfered. If only ...

Cheers, Ivars

Aleksej ~ I can apprecaite the difficulty you went through trying to come up with at least one love song that the Russian colonists, but not necessarily today’s fifth column, might have composed about Latvia, since as you say they love this land so much. It appears, as you realized in your enormous and hopeless task, that in desperation you subsituted some ad hoc poems for songs that even bards would have trouble squeezing out. The song that I posted, “Še kur līgo priežu meži!” just as one example, is part of tauta, as they say “iegājis tautā.” Most Latvians will recognize it right away and be able to sing it around a campfire, or in get together sessions most anywhere. It’s also a song that the legionnaires sang collectively in Latvia and in foreign lands. That’s an expression of love for Latvia where you don’t have to rummage around to come up with something. Latvian love for Latvia is real , instantaneous. There is nothing artificial about that.

I can also appreciate your pride in knowing the Crylic letters, but generally the idea behind communicating is to convey a message to the readers that can be easily understood and does not rquire going through gyrations such as a translation exercise. That’s unless you did not really want the readers to understand what you are trying to communicate. As a suggestion, so as not to interfere with your freedom of expression, next time just throw in the towel so that you don’t have to mess up the LOL thread.

The victory monument is an artificial Soviet symbol. Journalist Kārlis Streips calls it a “phalic.” It’s a substitue, a craving for Motherland Russia. Besides, May 9 is sponsored by Russia. To most colonists Latvia is a foreign land. Their solution is to make it part of imperial Russia than they would feel at home.

Cheers, Ivars

Wow. The air is certainly becoming thick with the aroma of what if. I love the smell of what if in the morning. It smells like. Victory. Monument not withstanding.

What if Germany won the war?
What if the Allies invaded the Soviet Union?
What if Latvia’s Russians sang songs in praise of Latvju Tauta?
What if Latvia appologized to the Russians for the Occupation?

Rather than address the facts what if we just make some stuff up so that we don’t have to deal with them?
Its truly a thing of beauty and less filing.
I won’t bother going through some of the inane arguments posed thus far point by point because that would indeed be pointless, but let me pose a few simple questions that can be answered with a yes or no.

Anyone here against Latvia’s independence?
Anyone here for Latvia becoming a part of Imperial Russia?
Anyone here against Latvia’s citizenship laws?
Anyone here against Latvia’s sovereignty?
Anyone here for Latvia adopting a Russian identity?
Anyone here for Germany winning WWII?

Andrejs

I can also appreciate your pride in knowing the Crylic letters, but generally the idea behind communicating is to convey a message to the readers that can be easily understood and does not rquire going through gyrations such as a translation exercise.

While I would be happy to translate poetry for you, I really don’t have that kind of time. Translating poetry is a difficult time-consuming task. Automatic translators, like this one, might offer you the gist of what the poem is about. For the record: One of them, for example, retells one story of Kendaraga, which is how the Riga neighborhood got its name, according to one legend. It is a story of Kangara Rags. Another poem talks about the cobble-stoned streets and the sea shores.

I’m not judging the patriotism of those who served in the Legion. I don’t think their patriotism somehow excludes patriotism of those Soviet soldiers that fought on the Soviet side. 

One of the reasons why your comments earlier would be offensive to anyone whose father, grandfather, brother, or uncle died in that war is because you render their deaths superfluous. A while ago in November, I went to the military cemetery in Riga, Bralu Kapi, where I saw graves of men who died on both sides of the front in the first and second wars. To me, this is what makes it an ideal way of remembering the dead. However, as long as there are people like yourself who say that the Soviet Union basically wasted its time, money and human lives, I’d support a right of people to gather and celebrate May 9 in any way they deem fit. You can play the alternative history games all you want, but it appears to me the Soviet flag is one fo the flags waving about in Berlin. In fact, you could have your picture taken with an actor portraying the Soviet soldier near the Brandenburg gate.

The victory monument is an artificial Soviet symbol. Journalist Kārlis Streips calls it a “phalic.” It’s a substitue, a craving for Motherland Russia. Besides, May 9 is sponsored by Russia. To most colonists Latvia is a foreign land. Their solution is to make it part of imperial Russia than they would feel at home.

You keep repeating this over and over again, yet I’ve yet to find anyone among my colonist friends who wait until Russia returns. Yes, for pensioners, perhaps, this is a foreign land and they’re too old to move. But for the rest of those evil Russians? Care to offer any shred of evidence of your ridiculous notions?

I also find it funny how those who live outside of Latvia consider any non-Latvians living within Latvia so unpatriotic. I find it ironic how you can preach about those evil rooskies from the comfort of your American home. And how quickly those patriotic Latvians and Russians living in Latvia, the country you dearly love, Mr. Graudins, gather their things and move to greener pastures of Ireland, Wales, England. Most recent rumors suggest people leaving to Belarus for work because every fifth Latvian resident - regardless of their ethnicity - is unemployed. 95 percent of the Latvian citizens distrust any branch of government in their own country. Latvia, according to the Eurostat data, is officially the poorest country in the EU. And then, there’s you, Mr. Graudins, sitting in your home, preaching about those evil rooskies who long for Russia to take over, yet they don’t hesitate to pack their bags and leave for Germany or Britain. Would they wait for Russia to return there as well?

Spectator ~ if George Patton, bless his soul, would have had a say, he would have kept rolling and there would have been no cold war, no captive nations to worry about, no victory monument in Riga and no May 9 celebration in Moscow. Too bad politics interfered.

Here we go again. An old fairytale being repeated with lack of facts. This fantasy has already been discredited many posts ago. I can just as easily say that if Stalin had let General Besariņš (Latvian commander in charge of Berlin) keep going after Berlin, The Russians would have driven the Western Allies back to Britain and there would have been more occupied countries with more victory monuments.
To refresh previous posts, the western allies did not have any bombers that could reach the Russian factories beyond Moscow (USA has 4 time zones while Russia has 9) and return. Russian tanks in Germany outnumbered the west by 2 to 1 as did the troops.
The only politics was the west started to prepare for an attack but after the military and intelligence units did an analysis they “together” determined that they would not get any further than Germany did because of the vast area to cover. All Patton would have done is kill more soldiers and still lose.
The oddity of all this is that Besariņš and Patton both died in automobile accidents.

Sveiki,

I won’t join the “if moonbats had colonized us instead” debate at this time, but—what’s your source on Nikolai Erastovich Berzarin (“Berzarins,” not “Besariņš,” in Latvian) being Latvian? Hunting around, the only sources I find are quite dubious. PCTVL (!) claims he’s a great Latvian (!), but see the comments by “Kurlandslegionar” here. Even if he did have some Latvian blood, he certainly didn’t self-identify as Latvian.

Visu gaišu,
/P

spectator et al.,

“If Germany didn’t have to keep some 50 divisions in France and Italy to fight the Allies, they would have made mincemeat of the Red Army. “

They might have made mincemeat of the Red Army but,according to some who fought in the war, not conquer Russia because of the vast size of the country.

Visu labu,

I have taken liberties in translating this song, albeit in good faith, with the help of Alisa and can only hope I haven’t completely decimated it.

Tyomnaja Notch/Dark Night

A dark, gloomy night, only bullets whistling across the steppe
While the wind hums along the wires,
And stars blink dimly.
On this dark night I know that you are not asleep, my love
You are by the crib, wiping a silent tear.

How I love the depth of your sweet eyes
How I wish I could press my lips against them.
Dark night is dividing us, my love,
And the troubled black steppe lies between us.

My faith is in you, my dear friend,
This faith has kept the bullet away on a dark night.
I am happy and calm in mortal fight,
Since I know you will greet me with love, no matter what.

Death does not scare me, we faced it on the steppes before,
Here it is, hovering above me right now.
You are waiting for me, sleepless by the crib,
And that is why I know that I am safe from harm.

I also see the Victory Monument as a Soviet symbol, which I detest.  And I enjoy sitting by the fire singing Latvian songs, but there are some I like, those that I like less or not at all.  We’ve been through this discussion before here on this forum and just because someone does not get off on Latvian music—folk, literature, i.e., does not necessarily make one less loyal, less of a Latvian.  I know ethnic Latvians who aren’t especially enthralled by either of the aforementioned and yet they still feel a deep connection with Latvia, the land, Latvians, their roots.  You can take any song and make what you will of it, but when you deem someone else, “less than” for not adhering to your particular choice, point of view, you’re embarking on a slippery slope—after all, you can’t dictate to the senses, nor to the heart.

I love this song, “Dark Night” not only for its hauntingly, beautiful melody but because of the universal suffering it expresses.  Even though it’s depicted as “Soviet”, Russian, Ukrainian, it transcends ethnicity in that most anyone can understand, relate to what humans go through during times of war, especially for those who have experienced it first hand, regardless of what side you are/were on.  A soldier in a lonely, desolate outpost somewhere—could be on the American prairie during the civil war as well as on the steppes of Russia, during combat, his life in peril, keeping himself going by envisioning his homeland, invoking the image of his loved-one standing by the crib—“You are waiting for me…and that is why I know that I am safe from harm.”

Irena

I won’t join the “if moonbats had colonized us instead” debate at this time
Sorry Peter C “the foolish one” but Mr Bezarins in 1941 spoke fluent Latvian and the Latvians called him a Latvian regardless of his crimes against the Latvian nation. This is according to the written records of the Latvian army in 1941.
What his record is after the war is the part in question for Stalin was always in the background and nationality was always in question. If you are so interested in his biography I suggest you do your own research for I have no interest in advancing Latvian traitors.

The Russian empire is rather unstable, led by an iron fist in Moscow, and financed by oil and other natural resource sales.  If this world-wide depression goes any further, a break in oil prices will drive Russia into bankruptcy.  In the long term, Moslems, Mongols and the Chinese will outnumber the Russians and ask for their slice of the pie!

Labrīt, Courlander et al.!

You’ve now misspelt Berzarin’s name in two different ways. How’s it spelt in the “written records of the Latvian army in 1941”? That’s quite a find you have there, considering the fact that the Latvian army was liquidated in 1940.

Vysu lobu,
P, the foolish one

For the record, the Russian wikipedia cites Nikolai Erastovich Berzarin as born in St. Petersburg in 1904. His father died in 1917. His mother died a year later. In 1918, he joined the Red Army. Joined the Bolshevik party in 1926. He headed 39 army division on the Baltic front at some point. I don’t see any other connections, relevant information, that would suggest that he was, or had any connection to the Baltic provinces, or Latvia in particular.

Thanks, Irena, for translating the Dark Night song, a song which is often sang by the Monument in Pardaugava. Found this, translated into English.

Would it have been a political problem to remind people that to turn around and say “oh-by-the-way, now we are going to go on and invade a country that we have been selling you as an ally” might not have gone over to well?