Like Pierre, I’m just putting in my 2 santims worth for now and this is REALLY keeping me from things I ought to be doing (gosh by darn it)!  Looks as though you’re the Lone Ranger here, Aleks, among foes, but I do admire your attitude, fortitude!

Briefly, I just want to reiterate what I’ve already said, here, what Andrejs said about the occupation being a non-starter,  And, that I don’t think that Latvians should have to tip toe around this fact or walk on egg shells, so as not to hurt someone’s feelings, except of course if You’re a politican (heh heh)!!

Among other things, I’m enjoying hearing about Ushakovs.  I’ve seen him a few times on TV and have been impressed, by his intelligence, prepossessing presence and an air of knowing what he’s about.

Irena

My definition of a “Latvian” nation is fairly simple and frankly the only one I think would work in the long run. The nation’s latvianess would be confined to:

a) The Latvian language

Latvian has to be the sole official language of the nation. This does not mean that other languages could not nor should they not exist in the public sphere (yes, including Russian). Simply means that no group, nationality or ethnicity other than ethnic Latvians should be given the right and the privilidge to be monolingual. I think its a fair compromise. Language can be acquired relatively easily without anyone having to sacrifice their identity. Every effort should be given to create a multilingual state, but the common denominator should always be Latvian. I think this is the only way Latvia can “absorb” its “minorities” and survive.

b) Here’s where it gets murky… :) I don’t have the time to word a manifesto at the moment (and what is about every one lacking time at the moment? Me myself I am soon to attend a meeting where I will present 101 valid reasons not to do something after which at the end of the meeting I will be told to do the impossible anyway thank you very much. Love working for the yankee dollar), but recognizing the fact that Latvia was occupied by the Soviet Union is a good starting point. Recognizing that Latvians are not just some lost German tribe with funny accents another.

Andrejs

Aleksejs et al.,

“I think that was Bruno the Lett’s test, no? “.

Do not complicate “my” test.  I meant that how one anstwers the question about Abrene is a good indication where one stands on the question of the occupation of Latvia.

Visu labu,

Bruno sez:

Do not complicate “my” test.  I meant that how one anstwers the question about Abrene is a good indication where one stands on the question of the occupation of Latvia.

But it is a very complicated question. Yes or No doesn’t cut it.

I think Abrene belonged to Latvia.
I think Russia has no right to Abrene.
I think Latvia should give up Abrene.
I think Latvia has very little to gain by fighting to retain Abrene.

So where does this leave me on the occupation scale?

Andrejs, uncomplicated

Yay. Another kvizs. 

Andrejs sez:

“I think Abrene belonged to Latvia.
I think Russia has no right to Abrene.
I think Latvia should give up Abrene.
I think Latvia has very little to gain by fighting to retain Abrene.”

I add more complication:

That part of the Abrene District that the current Latvian government has recently conceded to the RF forever was indeed once an integral part of the Latvian Republic. 

Now that the border treaty has been ratified by both sides, the RF has every right to claim Pytalovo as its own territory.

Latvians gave up that part of Abrene—twice.  Get over it.  Move on.

There is nothing to “retain.”  Besides, does Latvia really need tens of thousands of additional embittered, poorly-educated, monolingual negrazhdans and more swampland?

(And, as we speak, some of them are squatting on my swampy ancestral farmstead, which I shall never see thanks to that treaty.)

ak

ps Oh, yeah—there WAS an occupation, in case my “score” puts me in the wrong category.

This conversation is fascinating…and i’m only in the middle of page 2, trying to follow the various discussion points!  But in light of this discussion, anyone care to make a comment on the front page article on LOL…ALA’s letter of protest to Helena Demakova re: the Russian Cultural Days schedule?

I don’t want this to sound harsh.  But in reading this discussion, and then the front page, I can’t help but think someone’s got to give somewhere, sometime.  Kind of a pick your battles thing.  No argument from me over occupation/no occupation, indignities suffered/not suffered, holocaust and suffering or no.  But if all life must stop NOT from occuring ON an historic date, but for occuring NEAR an historic date…when does it end?

OK…that’s my 2 1/2 cents…anyone else?

Alex is right that the Latvian government has not done all it can or should. More communication with the Russophone population and more involvement of its more reasonable members in policy decisions would go some way toward defusing resentment. I wholly support the policy of requiring linguistic competence as a condition of citizenship (with exceptions where it is unreasonable to apply it—why give Zhdanoka a talking point about her 80-something blind old mother?); it could be presented in a less abrasive way.

Alex is also right about Russian sensitivity about WWII, but does not recognize it as a problem that must be solved for any future good relations. I find the same with my Russian friends—and I have become convinced that it is absolutely essential to delink the issue of legitimate Russian pride in defeating, at the cost of unimaginable suffering, the Nazi aggressors, from the fact that this victory was used to subjugate and occupy almost all the nations lying between Russia and Germany, imposing either satellite regimes or, worse, Soviet pseudo-republican puppets. And this delinking, while it needs to be done on both sides, is mostly a task for Russians. If they expect that their pride will for ever trump historical truth and justice, and suppress the no-less-valid patriotism of their neighbors, there will never be anything but recriminations and conflict.

Now one more point: in March of last year, a bill was presented to the Duma in Moscow, with the backing of the Kremlin, that inter alia would declare knowledge of the Russian language obligatory for all citizens of the Russian Federation. There was a storm of protest from non-Russian peoples with their homelands inside of the federation (note that the Russian speakers in Latvia are not in a parallel situation), and then this item simply disappeared from the news and I never heard what became of it. I expect someone on this list can tell me. Anyhow, it is evident that the Kremlin is quite willing to do just what it goes ballistic about when a neighboring people does it, as can be seen also in a bill introduced in June of this year requiring a language test for foreign citizens applying for work in Russia. I expect that if such a bill were presented to the parliament of any FSU state, requiring competence in the language of that country, the Kremlin would denounce it harshly.

Stephen

Russia has required Russian for naturalization since 2002, as far as I know: Foreign citizens and stateless persons who have reached the age of 18 and have dispositive capacity are entitled to file a naturalisation application asking for Russian Federation citizenship on general terms on the condition that the said citizens and persons [...] are in command of the Russian language; the procedure for assessing the level of knowledge of the Russian language shall be established by regulations on the procedure for considering issues concerning Russian Federation citizenship. (The full text of the law is here.)

As I recall, one of the most vocal opponents of the measure was the Black Colonel, Viktor Alksnis—he realized that it would dilute their propaganda.

Vysu lobu,
/P

Regarding Martins Duhms letter from ALA—-

the fanfare in advertising, sponsors, big hype about how warm, welcoming and open each culture is to the other will overshadow the reality of June 14th. As we know from the newspapers in LV, so little is ever written about those pivotal, historical events, that the reality of that time will become less and less prominent if other “exciting” events take centre-stage in the public forum.

I work in a Jewish institution—why is the Holocaust so imprinted on five generations of Jewish people? Because they never stop! Never, ever! Each memorial service, each holiday is like there was never one before. Every time a recap, a story, a memory, a tradition, a fundraiser for continued education with the statement :“May this never happen again.” Yes, there are still those who believe there was never a Holocaust but those idiots are starting to keep quiet.

I hate to use this term, but Latvians have to also strategically “market” their history.

the fanfare in advertising, sponsors, big hype about how warm, welcoming and open each culture is to the other will overshadow the reality of June 14th

Oh, please. June 14th in reality is either warm and rainy or chilly and sunny, depending upon the weather. Plenty is written about the historic events. Going out of the way to oppose a Russian cultural event because it’s held at the time is… er, really bad marketing and truly brain-dead thinking. The people who are into culture on either side of the warm and welcoming gulf are for the most part not people into deportations or the vagaries of Russian or Latvian chauvinism. This stupid ALA stunt makes many a Lett seem like a bigoted idiot who can’t tell the difference between a Russian and a Soviet, or culture and the lack of it. We’ve covered the calendar with black dates for the perpetually victimized Latvian people. Most people try to head for the dacha if it’s a nice day.

Ar cieņu,
/P

The BBC reporter posted a follow-up—

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2007/10/latvia_afternoon.html

Vysu lobu,
/P

While the timing could have been better, I too think ALA is making something out of nothing. It makes Latvians seem petty and trivial. Even if the culture days were to start on June 14th its kind of silly to try to make the connection between celebrating a “culture” and somehow minimizing the impact of June 14th on the Latvian psyche.
And the holocaust anology really doesn’t work. I highly doubt if someone were to organize German culture days with in a couple days of Yom Ha Shoa that the majority of Jews would even blink. One has nothing to do with the other.

Andrejs

andrejs komendantovs et al.,

Insted of giving an answer Aleksejs glibly goes “honestly, I see no reason to rewrite the borders because it may set a bad precedent. Why wouldn’t Finland demand back Karelia? Why wouldn’t Poland demand back Western Belarus and Ukraine? The borders are the borders. .....” blah, blah, blah and so on.

Andrejs with the sun glasses too goes blah, blah ,blah insted of giving an answer.

Sure the question of Abrene is complicated, but my question is if you agree with Putins claim about Abrene.

I wish the question could be put to Rubiks, Zdanova, Pleners(?), Demakova, and so on.

It would be a lot more fun watching them squirm about the answer than Aleksejs and, Andrejs with the sun glasses,

Visu labu,

Sveiki Aleksej!

I’d like to make a few clarifications about what I wrote re: Russians not being treated too well, Latvians also having suffered their share and more…

You wrote:  “And yet somehow you still try to justify it, which is still hurtful to some Russians here.  You’re still saying, well, for everything that Russians - notice: Russians, not Soviets - have done to Latvians, it’s certainly can be understood why Latvians didn’t treat Russians too well in the early 1990’s.  It is a two-way street, but it’s also time to move on and separate the Soviets in 1989 and the Russians in 2007.”

But Russians have long been the invaders, occupiers of Latvia throughout the years, not the other way around.  Russia is the big guy, the powerful one, while Latvia, the little guy.  Therefore, I don’t think I’m being unjust in saying that Latvia, the underdog, has suffered more under the Russians than vice versa.  And I have to chuckle about your reprimanding me for not distinguishing between “Russian” and “Soviet”—that’s my job here on LOL!  Some of those reading here are just gonna’ luv it!!!  Seriously, though, I don’t want to be hurtful to anyone, unless they’re down and dirty scumbags.  Frankly, it’s difficult for me to distinguish between this new brand of Russians in 2007 and Soviets—their philosophy seems to still be so intertwined.  At any rate I’m glad for these discussions and to be able to learn something new.

Re:  the letter from ALA.  I’m very divided about this and can see both sides.  I wish the original dates that were chosen were different, then possibly, all this could have been avoided.  However, I tend to think that this public letter will add fuel to the fire, putting Latvians in a bad light, which they don’t need at all.  I’ll be interested to hear the response from the minister of culture.

And Re: The BBC article:  Nothing he said really made much difference, IMO, but I would hardly expect otherwise.

Irena

Labrīt!

Sorry for indulging in such a vociferous tone in my reaction, but I was really taken aback by that—can’t ALA find something better to do? Helēna Demakova, whatever one may think of her increasingly partisan positions, is a nationalist of good sense when it comes to the so-called “national questions” that dominate this forum. She’s very aware of symbolism in action—see her response to Russia’s “kind” offer to fix up the Salaspils memorial, for example. The Russian festival was already delayed by a couple of years because of other priorities (like Étonnante Lettonie). The entire summer is riddled with days of mourning—maybe the Americans shouldn’t throw an Independence Day bash in Vērmanītis because it’s Holocaust Remembrance Day here? Oh, well, reason #288 for why Latvia’s so great—jo Amerikā Brīvībai ir statuja, bet Latvijā - piemineklis!

Vysu lobu,
/P